The Road to Heil...
Galatians 1:10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
posted by marc at 11/01/2005 08:02:00 AM
Tuesday, November 01, 2005
Galatians 1:10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
About Me
- Name: marc heinrich
- Location: minnetonka, mn
musician, songwriter, worship leader, beggar
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21 Pleas:
Unfortunately, it will not be far-fetched in the future to see well known contemporary Christians in pictures that will one day be posted, showing a merged apostate church and state to a point of utter and complete compromise. I will not be surprised if Rick Warren leads the pack.
Wow, candyinsierras, some strong words. Rick Warren = Nazi.
I am no fan of Rick Warren but last I checked he was opposing the only holocaust going on in the US these days.
oh really??? And Rick Warren hosted prayer at the United Nations, why?? He does more for ecumenism than any other Christian I know. I don't recall equating Rick Warren with Nazism...I do make the suggestion that Rick Warren does much to dilute the gospel and lead Christians into compromise with the world, which is why he hangs out with guys like Peter Drucker who he considers a mentor. I suggest researching some of Rick Warren's mentors, good pals, and some of his agendas.I will be happy to send you links if you wish. Incidentally, many of the catholic priests did not become Nazi's, but they were very much afraid of the political power that Hitler possessed. It was one thing to embrace Nazism, and quite another issue to be afraid of the power that the Nazi's wielded.
p.s. If you recall, many Christian leaders did not stand up for the truth during Hitler's reign. Perhaps it was due to the fact that many worldly philosophies had seeped into the Church, rendering it ineffective to resist the political climate. Christian leaders who did stand up and proclaim the gospel were imprisoned or put to death. Also recall that during Hitler's ascent to power, he totally courted the Church and even proclaimed his "Christianity". He knew if he could get the "religious community" behind him, he would be more assured of victory in his quest for domination of Germany. It was also a time of economic upheaval and vulnerability. He promised a lot and even the Church believed his claims.
Candy Said "Incidentally, many of the catholic priests did not become Nazi's, but they were very much afraid of the political power that Hitler possessed. It was one thing to embrace Nazism, and quite another issue to be afraid of the power that the Nazi's wielded"
A couple of thoughts here. I am no fan of Rick Warren either, but I think its a bit uncharitable to predict how he will act in some future hypothetical church/state totalitarian dictatorship. And, Second, a bit too charitable to let actual Bishops Heil-Hitlering in the picture here off because of their fear.
Bonhoeffer was afraid too, but did not capitulate too it or the Nazi's and he paid with his life.
MY fear is, how would I react. I fear I love my life too much and would act like those Bishops and NOT like Bonhoeffer. The question we should really be asking ourselves is who would I follow at such a time and place?
It's easy to point fingers. But it's hard to take care of the one person I'm responsible for.
Amen, Marc.
P.S. I'm no Rick Warren fan either.
P.S.S. See? I'm already caving in to peer pressure from people I don't even know!
(1) My impression was the Hitler did attempt to pass himself off as a “Christian.” Do you happen to have the reference for the quote on the first picture?
(2) Lets not forget that Bonhoeffer was in on an attempt to assassinate Hitler.
(3) Lets not forget that Jeremy is from Tennessee. What happened to TN this year? Roll Tide!
Jonathan,
In the too little too late column at Tennessee, Randy Sanders resigned as offensive coordinator!
Now if Fulmer will follow suit...
Moor,
I got this from The staight Dope:
"You are right that Hitler did mention Christianity many times in his writings. He paid Christianity a lot of lip service in Mein Kampf, and he claimed to be a Christian. But Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, also declared that "National Socialism [Nazism] and Christianity are irreconcilable" and Hitler didn't squawk too much about it. Similarly, Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools. You really want confusion? Randy Alley, one of my best WWII history sources, noted that the SS were supposedly forbidden to believe in God--yet the military's belt buckles said "Gott mit uns" ("God is with us")! "
ok..i concede the point that I also cannot predict how I would act another the circumstances. I can say that if we educate ourselves in how the Church reacted in historical situations, perhaps we can see what is coming down the road and not be blindsided or become complacent. I am not trying to be gracious about the priests and their fears, as many of them were highly political and the Pope himself thought that perhaps Hitler could be in a situation that would benefit Rome and Germany. Hitler had the Catholics fooled also. I'm just trying to make the point that so many Christians today are thinking that the best avenue is to "all just get along" to the detriment of the gospel, so we have some of the alarming trends in Christianity that could very well lead to the same kind of thinking that happened in Germany during Hitler's reign. I probably should not have named anyone in particular. I have done a lot of research into some of the agendas that some Christian leaders have espoused and their ideas fit nicely into a much larger picture to blend the Church into a secular global mindset politically.
My understanding is that Hitler claimed he was a Christian when he was trying to woo Germany. Once he had full control he dropped his facade. He was very clever. He did most of his speeches at 8pm in the evening. He stated that was when people were at their most vulnerable. Watch the film called "Triumph of the Will." A masterful propoganda film, employing amazing psychological camera shots that really grabbed the emotions. Bonhoffer warned the Church about Hitler. He was one of the few Christians whose church did not become part of a state mandated church. State mandated churches were only allowed to preach completely watered down messages approved by the Nazi's so that they would not affect the populace.
Thanks Candy, I hear what you are saying about the churches tendancies today having parallels in history.
Here is an interesting and apropos quote from C.H. Spurgeon:
"Hell itself does not contain greater monsters of iniquity than you and I might become. Within the magazine of our hearts there is power enough to destroy us in an instant, if omnipotent grace did not prevent. "
That is a great quote by Spurgeon!!
As far as the Church goes, here is a quote I saw on another blog....
"If Church history teaches us anything, it is that we cannot afford to be a vacillating Church. We minister to a people who are in great need of hearing truth, we dare not make any attempt to soft pedal that glorious truth". --Martin Luther
Thats a good one too. I was trying to find one Fide-o had up the other day about inaction by christians during crisis; it was by Spurgeon, I think. If anyone has it please toss it up here.
This is an interesting conversation.
First, it is worth noting that Martin Luther, quoted above by Candy, is viewed by many (Christians, Jews) to be the theological father of anti-semitism. And it is ironic that Luther should talk about vacillating; he was convinced that the Book of James should be expunged from the Canon (the "faith without works is dead" part really bummed him out). It seems Luther himself may have soft-pedaled that "glorious truth." (BTW: Is Candy actually quoting Luther? That Luther would have said the English equivalent of "soft-pedal" seems anachronistic.)
Second, the Protestant church was all the more vulnerable––was it not?––to being taken over as it was by Hitler's state. Why? Was it because the authority of the Catholic Church, with a papal seat atop its heirarchy, is less vulnerable to the machinations of a demagogue, and the cult of personality? Is there something intrinsic to Protestantism that makes it uniquely vulnerable? I think so. If we think of Jim Jones and David Koresh, Joseph Smith or the precursors to the Jehovah's Witnesses, or Christian Science founder Mary Baker Eddy, we find these are all born of Protestantism. Rare is it that one finds a Catholic cult. Why?
Just some questions I ponder all too frequently, (I presume).
Peace,
BG
Protestantism was vulnerable at the time due to much of the german philosophies that had crept into the Church, and all of Germany was vulnerable due to worldwide depression and the extravagent debt owed because of WWI. The Catholic Church was very political. Hitler disbanded the Catholic Center Party under the blessings of Pope Pius XI. Millions of Catholics joined the Nazi's at that time thinking the Pope wanted them to. When Pope Pius XI died, Pope Pius XII became the pope in 1939. He never denounced the atrocities against the Jews. He never spoke up when Hitler attacked Poland. He never said a word when the Germans deported the Jews from Rome. He didn't even say anything when Catholics and Orthodox Christians were hacked to death in Croatia. The Catholics in Germany, by the way, had a memorial mass for Hitler when he died. They never had memorial masses or lit candles for the millions of Jews who were killed.
Remember also that even though many of the Christian leaders in Germany failed to speak up or take a stand, many common people did whatever they could to help and protect the Jews. Many Christians were imprisoned and put to death for their efforts.
BTW, you are right, I doubt that Martin Luther used the term "soft-pedal" so obviously the quote is a paraphrase.
Hitler's interest in the occult and Nordic paganism has been a subject of perennial fascination, and there's no question that his "christianity" was a self-professed "new and improved" Aryan one. Syncretism was actually a conscious project in the Nazi party, and the propoganda minister made overt attempts to use Messianic symbols/messages along with images of strength and victory from Viking traditions. The Catholic church's notorious collusion with Hitler and the Luthern Protestant complacency combined to wither the much needed prophetic conscience in Germany. But anti-Semitism has been the tradition of Germany and most of Western Europe throughout it's history, even before Luther. It merely found new rhetoric with Protestantism.
By the way, this quote appears in a book I'd very highly recommend about issues of Church and state: It's called Mere Discipleship. Marc, I'd actually BUY YOU A COPY if you're interested.
The anti-semitism in Germany at the time of Hitler was fueled by two avenues that Hitler used to his advantage. One was a story/conspiracy written in Russia many years previously called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It was a story that stated that Jewish elders had plans to take over the world. When the depression hit Germany, many jewish businessmen took advantage of the situation and through frugality and perserverence, started prospering in their businesses. Hitler took advantage of the situation and started rumors that went along with the conspiracy of the Elders of Zion that the prosperity of the Jewish was the beginning of their quest for world domination, and proof that the conspiracy was real. It was stated that the story was true....sorta like how people believe that the Da Vinci Code is actually true today. Hitler also took advantage of the media to portray Jewish people as ugly animalistic greedy hedonistic people. Look at many of the newspaper articles and photographs of Jewish people at the time. I find it interesting how the media can so easily manipulate people in our time also. So anyways, the media was used to create a sense of paranoia about Jewish people during a very vulnerable time in Germany. Incidentally, many prominant Americans believed that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was true also.
Raja,
You are too kind... I never say no to good books!
Thanks for the good info in your comments.
I think it is a popular myth that Pius and the Catholics colluded with or applauded the Nazis. I have done very little study in this area, but I have scanned a few articles challenging this belief about the RC Church. Unfortunately there is no time for me to become an expert. But I tend to be cautious when discussing this issue: there are so many eager to blame, to find fault, to condemn.
I shall hold my tongue. But I know there are many who believe the genesis of Western anti-semitism is found in the writings of Martin Luther. Again, I am no scholar in this matter, but what I said is true: there are many who believe this. A good source to study is "Our Father Abraham," a book/film written by Marvin Wilson (perhaps America's leading evangelical bridging the gap between Christian and Jew).
That's really all I have to say, which, I notice, amounts to very little.
Peace.
BG
Contratimes,
I took a Holocaust history class as part of my undergraduate degree (the most depressing, horrible semester of my life) and this, I recall was a fairly standard observation about the machinations leading up to the final solution. The Catholic Church almost never apologizes about anything institutionally (due to their ecclesiology), but they did release a vague statement in 1998 with a document called "We Remember: A Reflection on the Shoah". While this mentioned only their silence during the Holocaust, not their support of Hitler, John Paul II released a statement in 2000 and verbally acknoweledged the mistreatment of Jews and Gypsies by the RCC. But in all of these statements the self-professed goals were to outline a way of remembering past misjudgments in a way so as to not take any responsibility for them.
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